Hello, and welcome to Bad Community Advice. I'm your host. My name is Seth Wrestler, and this is the show that's all about terrible tips and toxic takeaways. We talk to community professionals about the worst advice that they've ever gotten, why it doesn't work, and what you should be doing instead. I'm thrilled about the guest that I have on today. You may know her. She's been on the cover of Fast Company and Fortune. She's also been featured in the Wall Street Journal, wired Vanity Fair, Bloomberg, and the New York Times. She's appeared on Charlie Rose, CNBC and CNN, and that's because she is the CEO and the founder of Mighty Networks. If you are in the community space at all, you are familiar with Mighty Networks. It is a community platform that powers profitable memberships. People like Tony Robbins, Dr. Mark Hyman and Marie Forleo are all on Mighty Networks. And before she was with Mighty Networks, she was the CEO and the co-founder of the Pioneering Social Network, Ning. She's also got a bestselling book. It's called Purpose Design a Community, and Change Your Life. Please welcome Gina Bini.
Hi Gina. How are you? Oh my God.
I love the fact that there is some clapping sounds and some EAs, like that's fantastic. I I was a radio broadcaster for many years and I never got to use cheesy sound effects. And so now here's, here's my case. Well, you know what, uh, this is the first time I've been on a podcast where there were cheesy sound effects, and I'm super into it.
That was good.
Thank you for being here. I, I, I really appreciate thank for having, being here. Um, look, mighty Networks is obviously a known name. It's a pioneering name in the community building space, but for anybody who may not be familiar with Mindy Networks mm-hmm. Give me sort of the abridged, uh, story of, of your platform.
Yeah. So I am absolutely obsessed
with how do we build software that makes it
easier and easier and easier for people to come together around interests, around passions, around goals, around the people and things that they care about. And so that is been my career. That is, that's the lane that I picked. And Mighty Networks is a platform software platform that hosts
amazing communities with online courses, with memberships, with events, both live and in real life,
all with the goal of bringing new people together to meet and build relationships, what we call people magic. And just to kind of give a sense of size and scale of Mighty Networks, in the past year, we've helped our hosts, what we call the people who start and run the communities and memberships across Mighty Networks. Uh,
our hosts have earned half a billion dollars in revenue from bringing people together. And really the thing that we wake up every single day thinking about is how do we create amazing communities that
solve the hardest problems
in
building and running communities so that you as the host of a community look absolutely amazing to your members.
You do not have to do a lot of work, and that the really valuable parts of community are done for you in ways that are getting easier and easier and easier with all the technology and the things that we're doing behind the scenes. So that's really what we do at Mighty Networks. We think about it a lot less as, um, you know, a basket of features that you would bring together for creating a community and a lot more about how do we build something where the software sort of falls, you know, falls into the background. And what you are truly doing and what your members are truly doing is building relationships with each other. Okay.
Let me ask you about a, a key difference, um, because I think a lot of the people who are watching or listening to this are content creators. They're used to building audience. Mm-hmm. I think social media has taught us all how to build audience and sometimes the word audience, build audience and call it a community and call it a Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about, because they often use those words interchangeably and they are not the same thing. Can you talk about how you see the difference between an audience and a community?
Absolutely. An audience, first of all, an audience is about like, oh, how big are my numbers? It, you know, we've, we've turned this into a popularity contest. Um, turns out when you create a popularity contest for people, um, some really weird stuff happens. But fundamentally,
a audience is, I talk out at you,
you may talk back at me,
but nobody's talking to each other.
And the the way to sort of think about this is, are people building relationships with each other? Are they making friends? Are they finding people in their area? Are they
able to learn from the other people in your comment section? Probably not, especially when you start to think about stories in short form video and all of this stuff where the comments aren't even a thing where you could even see them.
So
what a community is,
and it's not just my opinion about a community and what a community is.
A community is
bringing a set of people together
so that they are talking to each other. And this simple shift has all sorts of awesome impact in the businesses that you can create, the value that you can bring to other people as the host of a community, and the value that members are going to get from that community. And I'll give it
just, it's sort of simplest format, which is, if you are building an audience, the only reason your audience is showing up is for you.
When you are building a community,
you are building something where people are showing up for each other. And what happens if people have
thousands of different reasons to show up? Because different people are reaching out to them, they're building relationships with each other, they have a reason to come back. It feels much more like a group chat than a social media feed that you're consuming. It means you're gonna have significantly more engagement, and it means that you have significantly more value that you are creating for people attention, that you are able to get from people, the, the opportunity to build a habit amongst people.
And all of these things are inherently and implicitly more valuable for a content creator than trying to go and fight increasingly sophisticated algorithms.
And shorter and shorter attention spans
just on your own. Because again, it's, it's you against, it's you against the world. Versus when you create a community, you're building something that has this incredible power
to tap into,
you know, who we are as people and what we wanna accomplish and what we care about. And we see that every day. So just in addition to how people are getting
the revenue, uh, that they're generating from their Mighty Networks, we
start with basics. We start with crushing the fundamentals. And one of those fundamentals is that member engagement. So
across Mighty Networks, the average engagement is 84% member led engagement. So members talking to each other, and that's compared to, you know, an industry average or even, you know, other community platforms that are like pumping themselves up at 20% member-led engagement. So think about that. 84% means you're, you, you have set up a party and people are excited to talk and meet and build relationships with each other. A 20% or even a 10% member led engagement rate means you're doing all the work.
Yeah. Uh, I mean, I think about it. I always like to use real world analogies in my head. It helps me. Sure. Imagine this. And I imagine hosting a dinner party, and I've got, you know, 20 people who come over for my dinner party, and if I have to talk to every single one and they don't talk to each other there, it's really awkward. You really wanna get it to the point where they're, they're having that interaction.
So that's exactly right. I, I'll take it even one step further, which is Yeah. Which is, I love the whole opportunity to, to host a party. And when I'm tired, I'm ready to go upstairs or like read a book or do something else, and my party's still going
and it can go all night long.
And that
is implicitly more valuable. But we have, we have been,
we have been marketed to and convinced that audiences are the pinnacle of success because the numbers are big. But when you really get into it, and we know a lot of people that start and show up at Mighty Networks with very big follower accounts,
and the realness of those, uh, isn't always what it seems. Yeah.
So let me ask you about this, uh, because I think there's a, there's nothing I'm old enough. I'm gonna give away my age here. I remember. I mean, you can if you want, like we're, you know, we're, we are, uh, it's, it's all makeup. This is a safe space, Seth. This is a safe space. I remember when MySpace came out. I remember when Facebook, you know, first came out, and in the beginning we called those things social networks,
and at some point we started calling them social media. And I don't think that that is just semantics. I think that was a, an actual shift and an evolution in those products. Yeah. And, and your path has actually
been a bit different because you haven't gone down the media path, you've gone down the network path. Can you talk a little bit about how you see the difference between those two things?
Yeah, I mean, it's the, the same difference we talked about moments ago. Um, you know, one is I talk out at you,
you consume my media, you might talk back at me. The other is a multi-directional, multifaceted, dynamic world where it is all about connecting people to each other.
And
the reason
that we
as a, you know, as a set of companies, and I was certainly running one of those that basically was like, wait, wait, no. Like, I'm sorry, but we're not going to move to social media. We are going to stay squarely in the world of social networks. And the reality is that the software was not ready at that time
to scale both to billions of people
and to that
highly dynamic, multiple
different nodes in a network dynamic
world where people could actually meet and build relationships with each other.
And what evolved was something where it almost felt to a lot of people, and there was certainly a, a, a major drive to reinforce this, that
building relationships with other human beings
was old or tired or not that cool. And it was much more, you know, this evolution of human beings that we would want to sit around and consume content and consume the content of other people and build parasocial relationships, meaning
you, you feel very intimately close to somebody you've never met. And
first of all, that hasn't ended particularly well for the people in that system. Uh, and now when you layer on top of it more and more and more
isolation and separation and extraction
from
what it means to be a human being,
uh, you know, I think the world is absolutely ready for real relationships and being able to meet people in increasingly interesting ways where there's very little social risk. There's, there's a lot of value and there's a lot of just scaffolding and support to meet and build relationships with each other. And that's certainly our mission at Mighty Networks is to create that software. 'cause we're not gonna be able to do it with people alone. It, it's, you know, we're, we're,
we are,
we are human beings in a casino where the most powerful computer
is in our pocket. And there have been, you know, incredibly powerful companies,
really ensuring that they find every way to manipulate our attention. And that's a lot to compete with. We're building software to actually compete with that, that that puts people front and center and uses very sophisticated technology to
at least give communities and human relationships a fighting chance to be able to build something that is meaningful and that does matter, and that is joyful and fun and energizing. And it's the thing we get up every day thinking about and, and
building. Yeah.
So let's say I'm a content creator, you know, a podcast or YouTube or whatever it might be. Sure. And I, I am thinking about this shift. I'm thinking, you know what, maybe I, I don't just wanna build an audience.
Maybe I should look into creating a space where people can come together and connect with each other. Yeah. What are the signs that, uh, my audience or, or what I'm doing, or the groundwork that I've laid, uh, might be ready for a community y
Yeah. It's such a great question. Um, so
if I take a step back, I think it's really interesting right now what, what we're starting to see in terms of, of podcasters who have been running very successful podcasts with an advertising model, retiring
and retiring because their audience is, is
flatlining or going down,
advertisers are moving to celebrity podcasters. All of this stuff is, is completely predictable in an audience world, and especially the audience world that we live in today.
Here are the things that I would say are amazing about a community. As if, and, and I would say this to anybody that has a podcast, that has a newsletter,
that has,
uh, a YouTube channel where you have been playing the audience game,
the ability to build a community
gives you so many more ways to create value for people. And to create value for people means that you can charge those people directly, plus
continue to offer advertisers deeper partnerships and deeper relationships than you can in a audience-based advertising world. So how do you know if you have the perfect candidate for a community? So, so here are the things I would look at. Number one is
do you podcast? Just taking that as an example around something that people have a lot of energy around. It's, it's about something in their lives, whether that's an interest, whether that's a passion, whether that's a goal. For me, the thing that I always look at is, you know, are you able to tap into someone's transition? Because when people are in transition, whether that's 'cause they wanna learn something, whether that's because they wanna get healthier, whether that's because they just got laid off from their job and now they're like, what do I do next? How do I build my own future? When they are in transition,
they are
radically more likely to join something,
contribute to something to meet and want to meet new people, to also bring in new people with them. 'cause they're gonna wanna talk about their transition and what they're doing to navigate that transition. So if you are
able
to teach something, if you have people coming to you asking the same questions over and over and over again, instead of thinking about it as a, oh, what I need to do is set up an AI version of myself, which we see a a lot of,
there's a time and a place for that. But what's so much more powerful is if you can create a network of people who you are able to offer
a space for, offer a framework for, offer a culture where you've made it okay for them to talk and build relationships with each other around the things that are most important to them.
You are
absolutely a candidate for creating a community. And I should add one more thing here. Turns out that people pay attention to what they pay for.
And so what we see is when you charge for said community,
people will show up, they'll show up, they'll pay, they'll stick around, they will, uh, they will talk about it to other people and bring, uh, more people in. And the average price people, our hosts are charging across a mighty network and across Mighty Networks is $48 a month, $48 a month. This is not a $5 cup of coffee kind of subscription. It's not a $9 subscription. It turns out that when you have a lower price or you offer a freemium community, you're gonna end up doing more work
and have less engagement, which is kind of a combination that I would not recommend to people. So what's really interesting is when you start to just think about these numbers at $48 a month or $480 a year, if you give two months free for an annual, annual package,
you don't need very many people to probably out earn whatever you are earning in advertising. And you probably already have those people today listening to your podcast,
subscribing to your YouTube channel,
reading your newsletter. And that is incredibly powerful.
So I wanna pick up on something that you didn't say there, which I think is really interesting. What you didn't say is you have to have an audience of a certain size that if you don't have 10,000 people on your email list or listening to your podcast or subscribing to your YouTube channel, forget it. You can't do this. You can start small with this, with the community and grow it, right?
Yeah.
And when you do, the other benefit is you are not the only person inviting new people into your community.
You're not the only person inviting people into your community. So we see, and these are, these are real numbers.
The average revenue
in our first year of someone who is starting from scratch. They don't have anybody that they brought to the table. They're just starting by turning their, you know, their, their contact list into
ambassadors. Meaning, you know, Hey, this is what I'm doing. This is the, you know, this is the paid challenge I'm starting with, or this is the cohort we're launching on, you know, May 15th, whatever,
um,
$4,800 in year one,
$4,800 in year one. So you can earn with no experience with no audience,
$5,000.
And that's average. So think about that being an average, which means there's people earning a lot more than that. The power and, and the, and the, and the trick
is that it's not about you
when you're creating a community. It's about what your members are hungry to get out of it and who else they want to meet
on their journey to
results and transformation and successfully navigating a transition in their lives. And here's the good news,
and this is what makes creating a community right now so
powerful. And so, like, such a phenomenal, not just business but thing to do because it's incredibly energizing to create a community. It's not always easy, but it is absolutely energizing.
And it's, it's this, it's number one,
the more that content
becomes something that you kind of can't tell whether it's real or whether it's not real, people are hungry for real human connection. And, and, and the challenge is that, you know,
people are getting worse and worse at it, right? So, so you become more valuable as a host to be able to like, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, I'm creating this amazing community again, it can start as a small group with a $48 a month a, uh,
membership fee or a $480, uh, a year membership fee. And by the way,
at Mighty Networks, you come to our website, we've got all the things because we've got all of these tens of thousands of networks, um, doing this that will help you step by step with what to offer, how to offer it. We call it community design. It's a, it's a simple nine step process and
you just have to like, listen to me for a while, talk, but it's based on what we're seeing work incredibly well. And when you do this, you are building the foundation
to
create something that can grow and an asset that can, can grow in a time, in a place of ai when so much is
dynamic, so much is changing. There are so many transitions. And what we fundamentally want and need as human beings is other human beings. And
that has got to get easier and easier and easier to
let more people join in to both as a member and as a creator, as a, as a host, um,
which is what we're building and what we do every day.
But it matters. This is work that matters and you can make a lot of money doing it.
I wanna pick up on something that you said there about this being energizing, because when you're a content creator, you're kind of like the engine. And when you stop writing new Harry Potter novels or you start putting out Game of Thrones episodes, the audience goes away because that's what they're coming back for over and over. That's right. And when you build a community, it's more like a container where people come together and, and I don't wanna say that there's no work in it. There is work in it, there's
work people. Yeah. But people show up for the relationships and that's what Yes. And you don't have to do everything. And so,
like you said, it energizes you as opposed to burning you out. 'cause everything depends on you, and when you stop, it's over. Right? That's right. That's right. And, and things happen in a community
more often that, you know, I I I will say more, you know, could happen with an audience, but is unlikely to happen with an audience. Um, so the idea that your members are meeting each other and like, go out to lunch and snap a picture and post it in the community,
that's energizing. You don't even realize how energizing those, those moments can be
until they happen. And then they happen. You're like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. Or when someone writes to the community and says, oh my gosh, I was navigating this challenge and I reached out to my, my group within this community,
and it was, I, I got the best perspective. Somebody told me their story and it mattered to me, and it made a huge difference. You see those things, and
in my experience, you don't even realize sometimes the psychic toll that constantly creating content
takes on a person. And when you stop creating content, it's like you feel irrelevant. The power of a community is that you have set up the conditions for other people
to get value from each other. It is. And, and, and I think this is a little bit of the tricky part of communities if you come from a content world, is that
sometimes you're like,
but I have the best ideas. Um, and that's why all these people follow me. Or, um, but it's, it's about my, if you just even think about the words we use, my followers, my audiences, I'm a I am a creator, I am the creator.
Those are potent and powerful words.
And it's one of the reasons why we're very, um, thoughtful about the languaging that we use at Mighty, where it's like the powers in being a host
hosts and hosting is more sustainable. It's more valuable. You can build more people can build
very healthy and amazing businesses. Like we have more $1 million communities on our platform than anything you're gonna find in newsletters or in in courses. And we support courses and, you know, see regularly how courses are, are evolving very quickly into these living, breathing very dynamic communities where courses offer a framework for people to meet and build relationships with each other. But it's just a, it's a, it's a, it's a more
sustainable and profitable business to build. And you get the benefit of meeting really cool people that
as they get value from each other, you're like, oh, I can do this. This is this, this is working, this is fun.
Yeah. Um, alright, I wanna get to your bad advice. Uh, I asked you for, uh, the word and, and, and, and in fairness when I first asked you, you're like, oh, there's so much. How do I there? How do I choose? This is what we ultimately settled on. Uh, we need to be where everyone already is.
And I think what we're saying here is that, uh, you know, when you first set out to build a community, you know, one of the things that people sometimes, uh, uh, tend to think is,
you know, in location we would call in real estate, we would call this location, location, location. We need to be where our people already are. So let's go to Facebook groups or WhatsApp Yeah. Or, or Discord or something like that. Mm-hmm. And, um, and, and we've had the argument on here that there is a time and a place to do that, but you're making the case that, that there is value and that you give up something when you go and build something where everybody already is. And that there is value in creating something that is, you know, a little bit separate, a little bit off the beaten path. Um, meaning that they need to go over to a community that's built on Mighty Networks, for example. Talk a little bit about what you get out of doing that and what the advantages are.
Yeah, so, uh, first of all, I I just want to embrace upfront the fact that I
have a dog in the hunt and, and I'm biased, but it, it means that I also have
a lot of data behind me. Um, you don't get to the kinds of community earning numbers,
uh, without seeing a, a, a very wide swath of where people came from and some of their engagement numbers and some of their revenue numbers when they have built communities or courses or memberships on Slack or WhatsApp or Facebook groups or Discord.
Here's the thing that gets missed, Seth
is
first of all,
more than building an audience and putting yourself out there with a community. You, you know, you're bringing people together. And so hopefully
people are excited about that. But there's, there's social risk in that. And I think the social risk is increasingly going down of creating a community, but it's there. So you kind of are already like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna do something wrong here. But here's the thing. When you choose to create a community that is branded for you,
branded for your purpose,
you are creating a culture, you are creating value that you can charge a premium for
when you are on Slack, when you are on Discord, when you are on WhatsApp, when you are on these platforms again where it's like, oh gosh, I'm not gonna get, like, I'm not gonna get fired. People aren't gonna, you know, hate me for being, uh, on Slack. The problem is that the experience is not designed to connect and build relationships between your members. The idea that,
um, a welcome channel is going to be the way that people meet each other, or that your new members are going to have what, you know, we call a magical first experience. Very low, very low. So when you have the ability and opportunity to create your own community, and this is one of the key things that we have done, because not all
build your own branded community platforms are created equal. Most have, uh, done a very shoddy job on native mobile apps.
If you do not create world class
native mobile apps,
building your own community on your own, you know, branded platform, it, it's not gonna work. And so we've, we've actually at Mighty, that is the number one thing we invested. We actually started
with mobile apps and added the web later,
and
that's how we have 84%, I said this at the beginning, 84% member engagement. You are not getting 84% member-led engagement on any of the platforms that I just mentioned. And the challenge, especially if you're trying to introduce new people to each other, just take WhatsApp,
who are these people? Like, you don't know who people are because it's like barely a phone number. Whereas what we have done at Mighty is, first of all, because it's your brand, you're able to create your own personality in the community. You're able to create, uh, you're able to create relationships between people, again, what we call and think about as, as people magic, uh, the relationships, being able to see, you know, who has things in common with me,
who are members, who are near me, who are members, who are like me, who are members who care about the same thing. And here's the thing that's so powerful. And we see this
weekly active members,
60%, 59, 60%,
uh, average weekly active members across Mighty Networks. And it's all because of the native mobile apps that are under your brand. And they go right next to someone's finger when they're about to go to Instagram or when they're about to go to, um, when they're about to go to TikTok or when they're about to go somewhere else,
you have the ability to say, this is my brand
and have a branded mobile app on their phone, on their home screen. And when you do that, you can charge a premium that you will never be able to charge on Discord,
on WhatsApp,
on Slack, because you can't offer the same kind of experience. You can't offer the same kind of member engagement, you can't offer the same kind of value.
But one of the things I I, I see regularly, um, is, is people wanting to be really data driven about which platform they choose. So they do a survey of their like followers before they start a community. And never in the, in the history of these surveys, have I seen somebody be like,
should we have our own
app? Should we have our own space, our own community? Because
for the most part, people are like,
Ugh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna add anything new except people are adding things that are new all the time
and they're having incredible experiences with them. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, mighty Networks exists and has a thriving rapidly growing business and platform where people are getting a tremendous amount of value.
I want to, um,
point out that I, you know, I think the logic that people have when they say, oh, we need to be where people already are, is we need to make it as easy as possible for people.
And, um, I, there's a fantastic documentary called Join or Die, which is, uh,
about TV building. And, uh, I, I interviewed the, um, the co-producers and the co-directors of it, and their advice was really interesting. Their bad was make it as easy as possible for people to join.
Um, and, and they weren't saying make it hard, but that what they were saying is sort of building on what you were saying. Yeah, there you go.
So I, this is, this is, I, I just wanna point this out and give these guys a shout out. So, you know, this is my home screen. Mm-hmm. There's something, there's a little, there's a little bath here, right? A little bath. This is one of our, uh, mighty Pro networks. So these are, you know, we power all of their, their apps. Um,
I've gone to this app
every day for 173 days and met incredible people. And it just sits next to my,
sits next to Instagram for me. It sits next to the weather,
the branded
weather app I use. And it's just so
natural because when I am in that app, I am in that app, I am in that community.
And I love, I love the point of some friction, but it doesn't have to be friction. It, it's, it's this absolutely stunning ability to create
culture
that has led us to make this investment in your own branded community, your own branded mobile apps, and delivering your community on absolutely native
app
experiences that are not
slow and clunky web wrappers, which again, is probably,
you know, more information than anybody wants or needs to know at this point. But, um, it really does matter. And, and mobile apps are the way that you create that 84% member led engagement, right? Well, right. It's because when you're in there, you're in there and, and to your point, there is a little bit of friction. Yeah, I gotta go outta the app I'm in, and it's not a lot of friction. It's, I move my, you know, thumb to the right, you move your thumb. But, but it's good to have, you know, the point that, uh, the directors of, of Join or Diamond was that it's good to have a little bit of friction because you want people to have skin in the game. You want them to, if they're gonna be there, be there. And this is what you were saying, when, you know, you want people to pay for it because then they have skin in the game, then they, they really show up as opposed to just, I'm gonna glance at this through all the other stuff that I'm scrolling through. That's right. Yeah. When people are in your space, you want them to be there and you're asking them to show up. That's right. Yeah. Um, one other, one other story about this, um,
early on at Mighty, we had a yoga community
and
I, I mean, we have lots of yoga communities, but certainly it was, it was a very large one at the time.
And
we were talking to the woman that was running it and she said, we have to move off Facebook. Because what we found was people were coming in hot. So
the culture of Facebook, the culture of Facebook groups, because it lives within Facebook and because people don't go off to Facebook groups, they experience them in their feed alongside, you know, a very high emotion, um, lot of debate about politics and things like that. In a yoga community,
in a yoga community,
people were being jerks.
So what they did is they moved
a group of people to their own yoga community on Mighty. So their own branded experience, they would put the same exact questions
and get fundamentally different answers,
fundamentally different tone, fundamentally different openness to meeting other people.
It was
profoundly different. And then they ended up moving over to Mighty and, and have had an amazing experience sense.
That's, that's fascinating. Uh, wow. Yeah. To, to, to see. Um, alright. Let me ask you one last question here, which is Sure. The same question I ask everybody at the end of these interviews, make a prediction.
Five, I mean, 'cause you've been in this game for a long time,
five years from now. What do you think we're gonna be talking about in the community space?
Uh, I don't believe there will be a community space.
I believe five years from now, community will be
integrated into the very fabric of our lives in ways that are
more natural,
more valuable,
more
important than ever.
And, you know, certainly what we are building and what, what I passionately believe is the future is how do we push out a relationship layer that can live
in more people's lives, in more ways that
make joining communities
the right level of friction
in more ways and in more places. So that, you know, as we get
more time from things that we have done historically, uh, whether for work or, or in life,
I,
I am absolutely convinced
that we need to fill that time
with the opportunity to build relationships with the most interesting and relevant people to you
as quickly as we possibly can and help people live much richer, more social and more interesting lives with
other people on the same path.
So. Well, Gina, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. This has been fantastic. Um, look, I, I really admire everything that you've been done doing. You, you're a pioneer in this community building space, and it's so important and I feel like it's, it's, you know, it's always important in human history, but it, it feels really important now. So it's, I'm really glad that you're here and that you're doing this work. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you. I appreciate it.
