It's an idea that I learned from c s Lewis, a very famous twentieth century English writer, and that is that there were, uh, seemingly infinite number of inner rings that people wanted to get into.
And whenever someone got into an inner ring, they discovered that indeed the new inner ring they were in, was actually not a good enough inner ring for them, and they wanted to be part of another inner ring.
This journey to get an inner ring then becomes an infinite one because there's never an inner ring that we get to.
We think, uh, now it's over.
We've ended.
Hello, and welcome to the Art of Community Conversations.
I'm your host.
My name is Seth Resler.
I am from Community Marketing Revolution, and this is a series of conversations that I've been having with Charles Vogl.
Charles is the author of the International Bestseller, The Art of Community.
There's a new Second Edition Out, which has 25% more content, and he is also the co author of Building Brand Communities, a book that he wrote with Carrie Melissa Jones, which won the Axiom Business Book Gold Medal.
Charles's work has been used to develop leadership and programs at Google, Airbnb, which Amazon and the US army.
He's presented at the Yale Leadership Institute, the Harvard Law School and the Stanford Graduate School of Business, among other places.
I wanna welcome back Charles.
Hey, Charles.
How are you? Hey, Seth.
It's wonderful to be back and see you again.
Yeah.
This is good.
So this is our seventh conversation.
We are talking about the seventh and final principle in your book, The Art of Community.
Uh, those who have been listening or watching these previous conversations know that you've organized the book into these seven principles.
And we're gonna have a final episode after this because you actually talk about some advanced ideas, uh, after you go through the seven principles, but that's not what we're talking about today.
Today, we are talking about the inner rings principle.
So let's get into this.
Uh, here's what you write in the book.
There are formal inner rings with official membership, and there are many more informal inner rings.
We all aspire to belong to prestigious inner rings, perhaps not just for authority and respect, but for new ways to contribute.
You then go on to say this desire is so powerful that we're rarely satisfied with the rings we already inhabit, we simply differ on the inner rings we aspire to join and what we're willing to do for admission.
So this is an interesting concept because we talked earlier, you know, if you go all the way back to the first principle about the boundary, which was basically the line between who's in the community and who's not.
And we talked about sort of an exploration zone for people who are thinking about joining the community.
But now what you're saying is that even once you get in the community, there are a number of different inner rings that people progress through as as time goes on.
Right? There can be inner rings that, uh, members can progress through.
Let's be really clear.
If you have a group of five friends and you are in a book club together, you may not have inner rings to enter.
But when we look at large communities and certainly communities that have been around for many, many years, like, usually what naturally develops is inner rings within the community.
And I wanna be clear, these rings aren't there so that more senior members or more accomplished members can snob out new members or people who aren't in the community yet.
Uh, these rings are there largely to, uh, provide a path for growth of members as they progress in whatever way that members are growing.
So you and I have talked about, say, a bicycling group.
You know, it could be on a big bison group that's been bison together for thirty years that the first day I show up I don't get invited to do century rides in The Rockies.
I'm a new member, and they don't know how will I ride.
They don't know if I have the skills.
They don't know if I have the stamina.
They don't know if I, uh, have the equipment yet to survive, uh, a long ride in the Rockies.
So that might be an inner ring.
And it may not be a case where I have to pass a test or have to be in the groups for long, but the people in the inner ring of long rides in the rocky mountains in the summer, um, wanna be confident that I work to a level in my bicycling or already am at a level where I can safely participate in that.
And, you know, in certain things that are dangerous, for example, I think we've talked about the fact I'm a skier and ski instructor.
Um, I don't wanna be on snow that's dangerous with people people who can't be safe on the snow and can't get me safe on the snow.
Right? So there may be a time where, uh, we want someone to ramp up with us to know whether we can take them certain places without putting us all in danger.
So these are just inner rings, and it's not a matter of us knobbing out anybody.
It's about growing into being a better bicyclist or a better athlete or anything else.
So you actually have a diagram in the book that I think is really helpful.
So let's take a look at that.
These are the inner rings And if by chance you are listening to the audio of this and you aren't actually seeing the image, this is a series of concentric rings and the outer ring.
You label visitors.
We talked about that.
People who are thinking about joining the community but maybe are not ready yet.
Uh, and then as you go in, you know, you work your way up through the rings, you move to novices, members, senior members, and then in that center circle, you've got principal elders and skilled masters.
So that's really helpful to sort of think about this path to progress through the rings, and you use an analogy in this book, which I love because it's a pop culture analogy.
And that's my thing.
Uh, you actually use the the movie karate kid to illustrate these, uh, these rings, how they work? Can you walk us through that analogy? Yeah.
Well, credit code is a great story where we meet somebody who, uh, doesn't know Marsh Larts and is, uh, really a victim of bullies.
And he meets an elder, really a skilled master of karate.
And mister Miyagi's a skilled master, um, helps a young man, uh, grow through the inner rings of the martial arts world.
And he and he has to build his skills to become a martial artist.
And at the end of the film, there's a point where, uh, the Ralph Machchio character wants to compete in a crowded tournament and doesn't have a belt, and he's asked are you a black or a brown belt? And, of course, he hasn't got any belts under all of this training.
So mister Miyagi actually takes a black belt and gives it to Daniel.
And Daniel in that moment is kind of anointed, uh, senior elder, a black belt in this community of martial artists and in the film wins the tournament.
But that's not the interesting part.
The interesting part is that there's at least two ostensible principle elders and skilled masters presented, and one is mister Miyagi who doesn't have a dojo and is training Daniel.
And the other one is the head of Krober Kai, who is very harsh with the students and physically abusive.
And, uh, they're both ostensibly karate master but we as an audience recognize that one of them is actually mature, and the other one is just pretending he's mature, and he's just got karate skills.
And we know that because of the way that they contribute or said differently the way they're generous.
So when Daniel wants to study in Cobercai, he's laughed out and there's no generosity there.
There's no contribution.
But when mister Miyagi sees that Daniel's in trouble, mister Miyagi extends generation and contributes the maturation of Daniel.
And when we talk about inner rings, we recognize maturation through inner ring when they're mature and healthy because there's an expansion of concern as someone moves through the inner rings.
So for example, uh, if I show up at a, um, bicycle community, and I wanna know if I wanna join the bicycle community, it's okay if my only interest is, will I like this bicycle community? Will it help me be a better bicyclist? Will I have fun? Uh, once I'm a member and I'm now bicycling with people on the beach or in the mountains, I better have a level of concern where I care about the safety of everybody I'm bicycling with.
And if I don't, then I'm a really lousy member, maybe even a dangerous member, because, like, my my thinking is, well, I'm having a good time and I'm safe.
If you can't keep up, you know, too bad for you.
If I become, let's say, a leader or an elder of the Biseling community, maybe I'm organizing leads, maybe I'm handing out instructions, my concern, I better be with everybody who's Biseling around us, not just the five or 10 people in our club.
Otherwise, I'm a really bad leader because I'm just leading us to places and maybe p p putting other people in danger, maybe hogging up resources, so on and so forth.
And until I'm, say, the principal elder or skilled master of our Biceland community And if I'm any good at that, hopefully I'm not just concerned about bicyclists.
But I'm also concerned about everybody who con contacts with bicyclists or shares resources with bicyclists.
I care about the motorists who are trying to avoid bicyclists.
I care about the hikers who might also be out there.
I care about the people who are planning the roads.
I care about the people who are cleaning the roads.
The point is I'm thinking how do bicyclists relate in a dynamic world to everyone? Now it's obvious that not every elder and principal elder will grow in their perceptions of concern, grow in their generosity as they mature in inner rings, but that's the journey of a healthy match deterioration into the inner rings.
And we see this in the karate kid where mister Miyagi, he doesn't just care care about Daniel.
He cares about all, uh, martial artists seemingly everywhere.
Whereas Copra Kai only cares about winning.
And we know that because in the third act, when Copra Kai looks like they're going to be losing, uh, the Copra Kai students are told to, uh, hurt Daniel, not just win the tournament, which shows that that master in air quotes isn't actually a master because he hasn't matured to the place where he's his concern has gone beyond his own little group.
So mister Miyagi is a fantastic example where someone doesn't need a title or a big community to to reflect that they have matured into an elder role in any given culture or subculture.
Now I wanna watch that movie this weekend.
Um, I am thinking back to my own martial arts career, which was not that big, but I was a, a hospital kid, not a karate kid.
And as I was thinking about it, a couple of things came to mind, um, first of all, it was always explained to me that when there were two people, especially two people of vastly different ranks, that it was the responsibility of the person who had the higher rank to make sure that the person of the lower rank did not get injured in anything that was happening, that that it was never you know, the lower ranks fault if if something went wrong, it was always, you know, and I think that that speaks to what you're saying about that care and that concern.
Uh, the other thing is that, you know, I didn't not everybody makes it all the way to the ring.
You know? I mean, I think I made it up to, like, green belt or something, and that was it.
I mean, I think everybody wants to, and I would love to be a black belt, but that doesn't always happen.
Right? I mean, some people only make it so far.
Yeah.
The interviews aren't there as a requirement.
And in fact, it could be that, uh, members are just happy to be at a at a more introductory level because they don't wanna do commitment.
They don't wanna make the time.
They just don't have the bandwidth to be that generous.
Because they're busy taking care of, say, sick family members, and that's fine.
The reason I articulated this is, for example, when I'm looking at, uh, communities in schools or communities in churches, the people who are unsophisticated think that everybody is the same.
And we're not, but we have different needs depending on what ring we're in.
And our maturation levels are different.
And so if you have a big community, you think everybody's the same and make everything make all your events the same for everyone and make opportunities the same for everyone, then you're totally misunderstanding what's going on there.
One of the things that we need to understand when we talk about inner rings is as people move through them, we want an opportunity to contribute not just to consume.
So maybe as a new bicyclist, I just wanna know where the rides are.
Maybe I just want the maps.
Maybe I just want somebody else to teach me how to do longer rides, both in planning and equipment and nutrition, strategy, But once I've been riding with the group for years, uh, probably well before that, I'll want to help other people become better bicyclists.
And if the community doesn't give me a chance to do that, then there's a missing.
I remember explaining this to one school that had a large parents group, and I remember when I explained this in a ring concept, they hit their head and said, oh my goodness.
That's what we're missing.
We've been treating our parents like they all want us to do stuff for them.
But once parents have been part of our school for several years, they want to help the new parents in the school get integrated, understand the schedule, understand where to volunteer, And right now, we're telling them, no, no, no, no, uh, we'll take care of you.
You just show up and come to the events.
And so there was a huge opportunity for them to invite people who are mature in the community to do what those people already wanna do, which is contribute.
And they had missed that because they didn't understand the inner ring principal.
So that's one of two sort of universal goals that you outline in the book that make people want to advance from one ring to the next, you know, is that desire to contribute.
The other one is just the desire to belong.
Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah.
So let's be clear that, um, you know, I labeled very typical levels of inner rings that we'll find in very mature often large communities, but it's not important that all communities have inner rings or that they have the same inner rings that we're talking about or that certainly call them what we call them because is that would be ridiculous, but that you're just aware that these may develop.
And one of the reasons they develop is that we may want to fulfill a longing to belong.
So I I write in the book that there was a chapter in my life where I was a documentary filmmaker.
And, of course, there was a time where I wanna be a doctorate filmmaker, but I wasn't yet a doctorate filmmaker, and then I was learning how to do it, but didn't have a film and didn't know, uh, what resources I needed and how to do anything.
And over those years, uh, I wanted to be an ever more exclusive inner rings of Doctorary filmmakers in New York.
I wanted to be with people who had certain funders, uh, people who, uh, were accepted to certain film festivals, people who got certain distribution deals, people who were invited to certain workshops, And, uh, to me, when I've got invited to certain events, to these certain inner rings, be that particular film festival group, or perhaps a funders off-site or something, it was a signal to me that I was maturing in my commitment to grow as a documentary filmmaker, whether that was true or not is a whole another question, but, like, I wanted the sense that I belong with these really, uh, successful filmmakers and that they thought I should be in the room.
And so even though there are a lot of filmmakers in America, there's inner ring of documentary filmmakers.
There's another inner ring of documentary filmmakers who are funded by a certain collection of well known funders.
There's another inner ring of people who make PBS films.
There's another inner ring of people who make PBS films that get invited to a certain number of elite film festivals.
There's another inner ring of people who get to those film festivals and win awards and travel around the world with those films, and you get the idea.
So Uh, there's a conversation whether that was healthy or not, but we can acknowledge that this is a phenomenon.
So, uh, it may be if we have a very large, uh, community of martial artists or volunteers or podcasters, we may wanna think, well, what are the inner rings that are almost naturally there that we wanna acknowledge that we can offer to our members to help them understand, yes, you are, in fact, maturing this thing.
That's bringing us together.
Now when we talked about the boundary principle, we pointed out that it was really important to have a clear boundary so that people knew whether they were in the community or not.
Is that also true with the inner rings I think it can be helpful.
Uh, so if we talk about, for example, this hypothetical of Charles joining a bicycle and community, either I'm invited to bicycle these century rides in The Rockies or I'm not.
Right? And it would be unhelpful if there's a bunch of members who don't know, you know, can I be invited? Will I be invited? How do you get invited? Just so that when these, right, these events or offer, there's a sense of, well, who who do we know belongs, or what is the path to get in? And one of the things I write about is we need elders to provide a path for people who are rightly skilled and have the right values to progress up.
So if I don't even know how one gets into the bicycling events in the Rockies, then that can be very frustrating to me.
So it's helpful.
If it's clear who's in and out so that there's just clarity of what's possible yet or how could be possible, But with this said, there'll be communities where it's a little bit fuzzy about who's yet mature, and then that can be clarified, uh, when there's a need for that.
And in a lot of communities, knowledge gets passed down from that inner ring, you know, the the the the innermost ring down to the other rings, can you talk a little bit about the different ways that knowledge can be passed down from one ring to another? Yeah.
One of the great joys of being part of a community with esoteric knowledge is getting act access to that knowledge that's not known outside the community.
You know, for example, as a Doctorary filmmaker, um, I understood ways of planning international shoots that just never come up in casual conversation over dinner.
And I had to talk about intellectual property use that vast majority Americans never even discuss.
But I will get access to that by hanging out with, spending time with more senior filmmakers.
So one of the things that we need to look at when we're offering in a rings and they're journey of maturation and an opportunity for elders to help others mature is to recognize when are we putting people together so that esoteric knowledge can be shared.
And, you know, the most fun way to get it is literally by just sitting down and talking about these things, which is how we share a lot of information as Docker filmmakers.
And then you can also think about how you document that in manuals or guidelines so that there's some formal way for people to get this information than by accident.
For example, in our hypothetical bicycle group, you know, if I wanna someday go on long rides in the Rockies, uh, there are things I need to know about safety.
There are things you need to know about equipment.
There are things I need know about communication, practices to keep everyone safe.
If I only get that by chance, if someone mentions it to me, if they think I need to know it, then that's pretty lousy.
So if you know there's gonna ring of people who do Rocky Mountain rides.
Think about, do we have guidelines? Uh, do we have a manual to at least get someone warmed up, knowing that it's not gonna be everything they need to know? We also need to provide those members access to elders to help share that information.
So if I'm a community manager or or community leader, should I be thinking about how knowledge is passed down and and should I be thinking about it both in terms of creating, you know, maybe some strict protocols for something, like you said, you know, the bike safety, but maybe just opportunities and spaces for it to also be passed down less formally.
Absolutely.
Uh, I think because there is right now such an enthusiasm of doing things online.
There's this expectation that online time is gonna deliver information and create relationships that used to be created generation to go, uh, literally over pizza.
And my understanding is all the research shows, uh, online relationships, the online connections are a very, very, very weak substitute.
They are not worth nothing, but they're worth far, far less.
And so one of the things we need to consider when we're actually bringing people together and wait to support one another and support growth is, uh, where and when are those times? We can put people in small groups where they can have the experiences that knit people together as people have been knitting together for untold millennia.
You talk about something called the inner ring problem.
What is that? Yeah.
It's a idea that I learned from c s Lewis, a very famous twentieth century English writer.
And he wrote about this idea observing what he saw on his generation in The UK.
And that is that there were, uh, seemingly infinite number of inner rings that people wanted to get into.
And whenever someone got into it in a ring, they discovered that indeed the new inner ring they were in, was actually not a good enough inner ring for them, and they wanted to be part of another inner ring.
And I kind of alluded to that about my filmmaking.
Like at some point, I wanted to be a filmmaker, and then a documentary filmmaker, and then I wanna be a documentary filmmaker who was funded by a certain number of well regarded funders that funded good work, and then I wanted to be a PBS filmmaker and then a PBS filmmaker that got into these top festivals and that won awards and were invited around the world, and then I wanted to be when certain wards, and eventually, again, I want academy award at one point.
Notice that it was an infinite journey.
Um, I actually have a number of friends who have academy awards, and I know that even then there's this aspiration to be in in a rings past that because because, uh, as one filmmaker put it, people might think that first academy Gordon was just an accident, you know, there's a need to win a second to prove it wasn't an accident kind of thing.
And so, you know, Lewis hypothesized that, uh, this journey to get it in a ring then becomes an infinite one because there's never an inner ring that we get to.
We think, uh, now it's over.
We've ended.
And anybody who understands a little bit how infinity works any distance on infinite journey of his infinite fraction of that journey.
So the feeling is you've gotten nowhere.
He calls this the trap of the inner ring that we keep on being in a ring except once getting in a ring, we wanna get another one.
Right? That's a trap because we can't get out of it.
And he says that, uh, there's a way to escape that.
And his prescription was and is to find something we like to do and to do it often.
And to invite people who like to do that thing as well to do it with us.
And he says if we keep doing the thing we like to do and invite people who like to do it with us, then eventually the relationships we form with those people doing that thing will look like it in a ring to people on the outside, but we know it's not in a ring.
It's just a gathering of people who like to do this thing.
And that special relationship that we form with the people that we do this thing together, uh, is called friendship.
So he says that friendship is the antidote to the trap of the inner ring.
I'm old enough, and I've been around long enough that I've been invited into many, many inner rings, and I've aspired to and worked to get into many, many inner rings, including leadership author in a rings.
And I've found that Lewis was 100% right.
To the point now where I have an explicit rule in my life that I don't pursue in a rings just for the sake of getting into an inner ring.
Now if I wanna be a better ski instructor, there's a ring of more experienced ski instructors and I can do and work to get into that.
Right? But I don't wanna get that in a ring just because it's better in a ring.
I wanna work toward that in a ring because I wanna build my skills.
So it's kinda funny, Seth.
I'm at this place where I can recognize when people are inviting me in a rings and, like, dangling them in front of me.
Like, I won't be part of it because they're really powerful influential people there.
And they don't know that as they're speaking, I'm actually thinking in my mind, oh, that's another a ring, I don't pursue inner rings for inner rings, so I totally don't wanna be part of that.
Rolling this over in my head, and I'm trying to think, you know, is this really a problem? Because does this motivate people to get better or to you know, move forward and progress.
But at the same time, I can understand why if it's infinite, it just gets exhausting after a while.
I mean, how do you tell the difference? But between whether this is something that is motivating you versus damaging to you.
I think one of the questions we can ask ourselves is this helping me grow into who I wanna be.
I'm with some frequency invited to conferences or gatherings or retreats, or someone says in so many words, Hey, there's gonna be really important people there that you wanna know.
Here's the truth, Seth.
I'm over 50 years old now.
I've, uh, been to a lot of places.
I know a lot of people.
Fact, I know so many people.
I can't maintain all the relationships I have at the level I wanna maintain them.
I just physically don't have the time.
I don't need access to more people to just have more relationships.
That's not to say I don't want to meet people.
It's not to say there are people I'm not gonna meet that are gonna enrich my lives, but I just don't physically need to go and find more people, which is to say I just don't need to go find more inner rings.
For the sake of inner rings.
There may be people I wanna find because they can help me mature in the ways I wanna mature, and I can work toward that and I can foster that.
But that's a very different thing than trying to get in a ring to tell myself that I'm good enough or I'm cool enough or that other people respect me enough.
So I actually learned a new vocabulary word reading this chapter, one that I didn't know before, which is diaconate.
Explain to me what that is.
So diaconate is a term that I I took from religious studies, uh, that's often used in spiritual denominations just to refer to the people within the spiritual tradition that have more authority than other people.
And even within diaconate, there's higher levels and lower levels.
And I applied that to community building to denote that it's important that there are people in the community that have more authority on what are the values of the community and how the community works than other people.
And I know that some people when they're bringing people together like to have an extremist egalitarian approach.
Uh, the problem with that is that if someone stands up and starts broadcasting really abhorrent ideas, really racist ideas or hateful ideas, there's nobody in the room or any in the organization to say, that is actually not consistent with the values of this community, be it a supporting community or an education community or a military family community.
There's no way to distinguish for members or a visitor that that is not a representative voice or representative ideas.
And, typically, the deaconate is there.
It's just that people either don't if they don't think it's there, it's because they don't recognize it or understand it's important to have one.
When there is nobody who has particular authority on what are our values and how do we do things, um, I'll ask, uh, well, and how who has the authority to bring someone into the community? Who has authority to bring someone out? And who is authority to say, no.
That's not how we do things here.
And usually, there's somebody, and it may be an informal authority, but that there is authority there to help steer how the community is growing.
And you outlined three specific responsibilities for the, uh, diaconate.
The first is to protect the boundary.
So explain what you mean by that.
We talked about the importance of boundaries.
We need someone to recognize when someone is participating who doesn't hold adequate shared values and shared purpose, and so they're eroding the power of the community.
And and we talked about that in your podcasting group.
Someone could show up among podcasters who wanna make powerful media that makes a difference, and they may be there just selling equipment.
Nothing wrong with selling equipment, podcasters buy equipment, but if you're trying to create a community of people who are talking about and growing and creating content, someone who keeps showing up to sell equipment isn't the right fit.
And so you need somebody in a deactivated to who has the authority to look, you shouldn't be here.
Doesn't mean you're a bad person.
Doesn't mean we don't like you.
Doesn't mean you can't be supportive.
Uh, this is not where you should be right now.
Alright.
So a second responsibility that you outline is officiating the rich And this makes a lot of sense.
This is, I think, where people would recognize this the most.
Right? Yeah.
Well, in a mature community, there's gonna be several rituals that are gonna be really important.
One is to some kind of ritual that has meaning that it recognizes when someone goes from a visitor stage to a membership stage.
And it may be a very simple ritual, but there's something, a handing of a pin, a warm hug, a celebratory dinner, something that acknowledges, okay, you're you're with us now, and that's really wonderful.
And if there's nobody in the community that has the authority to say, well, you're part of it, that ritual doesn't become important, no one to actually host that ritual.
Uh, there are other rituals that I hope important.
One is acknowledging how people are maturing.
Maybe they win awards.
Maybe they, uh, gain new accomplishments.
Maybe they can profound contribution.
Hopefully, there's some ritual above zero that honors, you know, that change in their experience.
And then Daconate can be the people that make that ritual powerful that, um, has authority to say, yes.
It is worth honoring you for this contribution or this maturation that you've made.
Alright.
And then the third and, I I don't know, final, but third responsibility that you outline in the book is to teach the values of the community.
Mhmm.
Sure.
You know, when we talk about our, you know, your podcasting group, as you well know, people can create media for many, many, many different reasons, and one of them could just be selling lies because, uh, lies get attention.
Right? And you can tell as many as you want and and maybe enough people believe it to make money.
Uh, my guess, Seth, is you don't wanna be part of that podcasting community.
Or you don't wanna know people who will steal other people's media, slap their name on it and call it new media.
I've actually been, uh, to an education event by a community of experts, or they're advocating in a fairly complicated way stealing other people's media and then declaring it their own as leadership advice.
And I was sickened by it and, uh, didn't participate anymore.
It's important that somebody in the community has the authority to say, look, This isn't consistent with what we do.
This isn't consistent with the values that we wanna grow into, and so we're gonna go a different direction.
And if you don't, then you're really, uh, rudderless as far as how your community is growing and what you're teaching.
Alright.
So now that you've described it, I I know what a diaconate is.
I think I can, you know, picture examples in the communities that I've seen.
Uh, is it possible that there's ever not a diaconate in a community? And if so, what happens? Uh, is it possible? I can imagine that there's a fairly egalitarian small group, but usually when a group gets certainly like 10 or bigger, there's at least an informal diacinate There is somebody who can say, look, uh, this person is important to include because it's the values and the purpose of our community, and who can say, uh, look, that's not a good fit.
Uh, shouldn't be here, shouldn't be now, even that's informal authority.
So is it possible maybe, but when we look at durable growing communities, uh, diakna emerges of people who fulfill the three roles that you described and provide stability in that growth and that direction of the growth that's being offered.
Alright.
So that is the principle of the inner rings.
That's our seventh and final principle in the art of community, but our conversations aren't over.
We're gonna have one more because you go on the book to talk about advanced concepts.
I'm really looking forward to that conversation.
So, uh, we will see you there, Charles.
Alright.
Well, thanks for this time, Seth.
I'm great.
We can do this
