Hello, and welcome to Community Case Studies.
I'm your host.
My name is Seth Resler, and this series is a look at how belonging is really built.
The whole idea here is that I wanna talk to people who are actually building community out there in the real world to find out how they are applying different community building principles in real life.
I'm really excited about my guest today.
She is an international best selling author.
She is the author of the award winning psychological suspense novels, The Marsh King's Daughter, and the wicked sister.
I have read them both.
They are both fantastic.
The Marsh King's daughter was named one of the best books 2017 by IBooks and a slew of others.
And in 2023, it became a major motion picture starring Daisy Ridley and Ben Mendelson, but we're not gonna talk to her about that at all.
Even though she's a fantastically successful content creator, we're actually going to talk to her about the community that she manages, which is the backroom.
Please welcome Karen Dionne.
Hi, Karen.
How are you? Hi, Seth.
I'm great.
I'm really happy to be on the program.
And believe it or not, I'm happy to talk about something other than my books.
You tired of all of that.
Um, I do I it's it's what you've been doing for years.
Right? That's right.
That's right.
The Marsh King's daughter came up, um, eight years ago.
And so, you know, I've it it's it's sometimes hard to talk about it and have it sound fresh, at least to me.
You know, I have to remind myself that whoever I'm talking to hasn't heard about it yet.
But community is something I'm really passionate about.
So I appreciate the opportunity.
Alright.
So I do wanna get to community, but I do wanna touch on the Marsh King's daughter because when you and I first met, I was hosting a podcast in the Detroit area about the Detroit Arts and Entertainment scene, and you are one of my favorite interviews that I ever did.
Uh, I actually came to your house.
And you are sort of that quintessential story of somebody who's an overnight success that was decades in the making, uh, that you had written this book, the March King's daughter, and it was just taking off at that point.
I mean, I think I've been published and you I remember we were in, I don't know whether it was a, like, uh, this this garage or this some work space that you had, and you were literally showing me versions of the book in all the different languages that it had been published in.
And I think maybe there was some talk about the movie at that point, but it hadn't you know, it it was real early stages.
Um, congratulations on all the success.
Can you just tell us a little bit about your story as an author? And then we'll turn to the the backroom.
Sure.
Sure.
Thanks.
So, um, the more King's daughter was actually my fourth published novel.
My early novels were science based thrillers similar to what Michael Kreton wrote.
I started writing those because that's what I like to read.
But, um, I woke up in the night with the opening sentences of the Marsh King's daughter fully formed in my head.
Um, I was intrigued by the story because the character, the main character is the daughter of a kidnapped victim and the man who took her.
So it's not her mother's story.
It's the story about a girl who grows up in captivity, only she doesn't know she's a captive, until, you know, she's things happen.
So, um, that took me in the direction of psychological suspense, and I will say that I knew when I got the idea when and everything gelled that the book had commercial potential, but it did, oh, a magnitude of of of times more than I ever expected it to.
You know, the Marsh King's daughter has sold in 28 languages.
Um, name, you know, was a best seller in Germany and Sweden and Iceland.
And then, um, uh, yeah, got a lot of recognition for the quality, won some awards, which, of course, is is super.
And, oh, and it had got a rave review in the New York Times, which for an author, that's like, kill me now.
It's not gonna get better than that, except that you you might see a little bit of this movie poster on the wall behind me.
So, yeah, it's been a wild ride.
That's for sure.
And, um, yeah, it was only twenty years in the making.
Yeah.
Uh, that's a fantastic story.
Uh, and I love it.
And we should say it is set in the UP.
That's what those of us who are in Michigan call it, the Upper Peninsula.
So, I mean, I mean, the way that we always point out where we are in Michigan by holding up our hand in the UP is this part over here, uh, which is fascinating.
I I will confess.
Uh, I wanna describe it as a page turner, but the truth is I haven't actually read it.
I don't know how authors feel about this.
I listened to it as an audio book.
Uh, we go up camping and Sleeping Bear Dunes every year, and and we listened to it on our way, and we were riveted by it.
So Oh, that's perfect.
Congratulations on all the success with that.
That's not what we're here to talk about.
We are here to talk about, uh, the community building that you have done over the years.
So tell me a little bit about what the backroom is.
Well, okay.
So the backroom is my current project.
I've actually, um, been involved in community building and two other instances.
So, um, I might I might back up a little bit for that just just briefly.
So, um, in 02/2004, I started connecting with authors online um, that was very early, early internet days.
And I'd found a writer's forum, and it had a lot of flaws.
And so, um, I, in another author, um, we set up a place called Backspace.
And, um, we backspace as a community.
We were using the bulletin board format.
That's all that was available to us at the time.
But in the first five years, I I kind of did account at the five year mark, and we had at that time, 1,200 members in a dozen countries.
And many of the original members were now, uh, you know, best selling authors.
They published their books and so forth.
So I believe what really made that community take off and made it work is that we we supplied a need.
Um, people needed a private place.
Um, the the public forum where we all initially connected, um, had troublemakers, trolls, people who were not serious about getting, uh, published and about improving their writing.
So we created this private space where that was possible, and the whole thing just blossomed.
Um, at the same time, once I became a published author, I joined the international thriller writers, and they have a debut authors program, which I was, um, because it was early days, I was somewhat instrumental in getting that going.
And as part of that, we also had a discussion forum.
And so what now today, what I'm doing with the backroom, it's less of a discussion for him, and but it's definitely a community because it's an online author series.
Once a month, um, I and my my co founder and partner Hank Philip Ryan, who's also a wonderful author.
Um, she, and I host once a month, four authors.
And our ideal panel of authors would be, um, two men, two women, three established authors, and one debut author.
And so it's a nice mix, the established authors, you know, bring their fans along to who are are interested in in hearing from them.
And then, you know, the debut author gets some of the, uh, effect of that to become a little bit better known.
But, What makes the backroom unique compared to other online events is we zoo use zoom breakout rooms to break up the audience into smaller groups, and then they can talk directly to each author in turn.
So it's it's very very conversational.
And, um, yeah, as far as the community's concerned, we have a lot of, um, attendees who come to every event they can.
Um, I've even heard that one Um, I heard from a woman's daughter, and she said that, um, if her own daughter wants to talk to Graham, and she knows not to, not to interrupt when there's a backroom event going on.
Right.
Nice.
I I love this because this illustrates so many of the community building principles.
And frankly, this is something that if you are a content creator, uh, which you obviously are, there are some things that are different between building communities and building audiences.
And I think you're illustrating them here.
Um, in order to build an audience, you create content.
You know, you write a book.
You have a podcast.
You make videos.
In order to build a community, you create a space.
And it's interesting that in the early days of the internet, you were doing that with these online forums.
And, obviously, the tools have come a long way.
Now you can do it with video and things like that.
So you're using zoom to do that.
Uh, but the other thing that you touched on is that there's a shared mission of the members who are gathered.
There's some reason why they're gathering in that space and connecting to other people.
Can you talk a little bit about what the shared mission was? I think he touched on this with the back space.
And maybe how that's different from the shared mission of the back room, which you are now running.
Yeah.
Sure.
So backspace, it was all about, um, getting published, uh, in the beginning.
None of us were published.
And so, um, but if if I was to name some of the authors who were part of the community in those early days, you would you would recognize them right away.
So, um, we were helping one another as as writers in fact, that was our tagline for for the group, writers helping writers.
So what's different about the back room now is because, um, I think what people are coming for and what they get out of the event is, um, it's it's almost like our author series is a curated, um, exposure to authors.
You know, there's there's so many books, hundreds, thousands.
I don't know the number.
A books published every year.
And readers can't get to all of them.
And yes, they get their book recommendations, you know, from friends and and, you know, they might have some some small community that way.
Maybe they follow, um, you know, a book reviewer on on Instagram or something like that.
So, uh, what happens in the back room is Hank, uh, and I very carefully choose the authors who are there.
Um, we're we're going for authors who we know enjoy connecting with readers.
And many of the attendees, um, they they buy all of the author's books, and then the authors also make a book recommendation as part of the program.
So they also buy the book recommendations because You know, they've heard them.
It's like a a trusted recommendation.
I hope that makes sense.
Yeah.
No.
Absolutely.
That totally makes sense.
Um, talk a little bit because one of the things that I I I like to do when we talk about community is distinguished between the mission of the members, the participants, why they're there and what they get out of it, and the business purpose or the organizational value, what the person who is hosting the community is getting out of it.
And sometimes they overlap but they're not always necessarily the same thing.
Like, why are you and your partner hosting this community? And and, you know, what's it? Yeah.
That's that's a great question.
And, um, I guess to answer that, I'll go to, um, the start of it.
So Both Hank and I had a book published on 08/04/2020.
And if you, uh, recognize 2020 as being the first pandemic summer, that was that was a time where in the book industry, it was so chaotic.
You know, the the publishers, their offices had to close down, you know, that spring.
And, um, in in the case for myself, advanced reader copies were already printed, but they were stuck in the offices, and they couldn't be mailed out.
And and it was hard to get reviews, and and everything was chaotic.
So Hank and I were supposed to do an event together at a bookstore in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but, um, obviously, that wasn't going to happen.
And so the bookstores at that time they pivoted, and they would do online events.
That's where, you know, we all started finding out what, what is zoom.
Right? And so Hank and I did that event together, and it was, you know, book launch for both of us.
But Um, you know, all credit to the bookstores for stepping up and trying something new, but ultimately it was quite disappointing because we couldn't see the audience.
We didn't know who was there.
And when an author does a a book event in the real world, they're drawing energy from the crowd, you know, and and you're taking questions and you see the person who's who's asking a question.
And there was none of that.
Uh, like Hank likes to say, we put on makeup and and we talked to a screen on our com computer from home.
It just felt so weird.
So we both kind of put our heads together and said there has to be a way that you can do an online event that feels more like a real world event.
So I would say initially what we were doing was providing a service for authors, you know, to connect with their readers while the lockdown was in effect.
And it was a good year later that bookstores you know, started having events again.
But it's interesting because along the way, we discovered that, um, people loved it.
And the re one of the reasons they loved it is because, like, people were attending who lived in a small town, and maybe they didn't have a bookstore available to them, or they lived in another part of war in another part of the world, you know, and it was out of the question to be able to come to this particular author's event.
We also hosted authors from other parts of the world.
So we had had authors call in from, you know, New Zealand or from The UK or South Africa and and interesting places like that.
And, um, another reason that, um, attendees really loved coming was They didn't have to get a babysitter.
And, well, technically, they didn't have to dress up.
They could they could come in their pajamas if that's what they chose to do.
So, um, the format ended up it it it worked for the authors and it worked for the Read.
Readers in the attendees.
I love that.
Uh, and and can we point out something about the technology that you're using here? Because, you know, you talked about how initially it felt like you were just talking to a screen and there was no interaction.
I I think sometimes people don't realize that it comes to digital technology, there are publishing tools that are really meant to broadcast content out.
And they play the role that, you know, the printing press or the television studio or the radio tower used to play, which is to by and large, send the message to a large audience in one way.
What you really needed, and and it sounds like you found in Zoom with these breakout rooms was a place where people could actually connect and interact.
And that that's a different type of technology.
That's not publishing technology or broadcasting technology, it is space building technology.
It allows you to build a space where people can come together and connect with each other.
And that's what you were it sounds like really missing, you know, during the pandemic when you couldn't go do these these in store events.
Is that right? Yes.
That's a that's a great way to sum it sum it up.
Let me ask something about the space.
You touched on this when you were talking about, uh, the back space.
I don't know if it's been an issue with the back room, but you mentioned with the back space that sometimes you would get trolls or you would get people who weren't serious about writing in the room, and that was a problem.
You felt the need to exclude them.
Uh, and I think that this is so important because you know, we've been taught to always be inclusive, but when you're building a space, you gotta have the right people in the room, and you gotta have people who are bought into the shared mission and are on board with that.
And and so you found ways to what we call thoughtfully exclude people to make sure that you had the right people.
Talk a little bit more about why that was so important.
Yeah.
I will.
So, um, Well, obviously, we have tech people who are are very good at running things.
Hank and I take turns hosting, and we both moderate a breakout room.
Um, for the first four years, I should mention we've been running the back room for, um, five years now.
We're starting in our sixth year.
So who who would have ever dreamed that it would continue for so long.
So for the first four years, we would have four breakout rooms.
And so we had two volunteer moderators, and Hank would moderate a room, and I would moderate a room.
Um, we did not act as interviewers, but it was our job to make sure there was no dead air.
If if if that particular room of attendees did not have questions for the authors, we would fill in a question and so forth.
We also, um, had the power to mute somebody.
Um, we encourage people to have their video on, and their mics open.
But, you know, sometimes people forget, and, and maybe there's a conversation going on in the back ground.
And and so, you know, our moderators were able to to mute that conversation so that it wouldn't be, um, disturbing.
One time, we we got some troll in there.
I don't know how, but, um, the tech people took care of him and got rid of them in a hurry.
So I I hardly even notice that there was a problem.
So, you know, a good support staff really makes a big difference.
Yeah.
So what we're talking about here is essentially the safety of the space.
You need to make sure that everybody feels comfortable uh, that they're having a good time.
And it's not just physical safety or even freedom from harassment, but it's also just freedom from annoyance that everybody can come and enjoy what the event is all about.
Sounds like you take that very seriously.
You've got staff that dedicated to that, and you've thought that through for how we gonna make sure that this is an enjoyable experience for everybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and, um, our tech people, they're I like to think the program is really, um, professionally run.
You know? So, um, while I and Hank and our four authors are meeting before the program actually starts in in like a green room, uh, it is a breakout room, of course.
In the main room, as as attendees are gathering, There's a nice there's music playing and there's a screen that, um, you know, shows who's coming that night and what their current books are.
And and, um, when when people are moved into the breakout rooms, and I should add that, um, now we're we have two off there's in each breakout room, and they each basically have about fifteen minutes to, you know, interact with the group and talk about their new book.
Um, then they're switched to the other breakout room.
And Yeah.
Again, it just happens seamlessly.
So, um, I have to give big props to our, um, tech people for taking care of all of the behind the scenes stuff for us.
They make us look good is is what I like to say.
But, yes, it's it's a balance for as a moderator, it's a balance between the needs of the author and the needs of the, uh, attendees.
And we really want to make sure that everybody who has a question for the author gets a chance to answer it.
It's not us interviewing the author at all.
You know, it's it's people who are, you know, huge fans and they they wanna connect it basically.
I was about to say in person, but, you know, as close to in person as you can get, uh, in an online event.
They wanna connect with that author, tell them, you know, what their favorite book was, and and they have the chance to do that in this format.
Now you said that, uh, you have a lot of people who are regulars.
They come over and over again.
Let's talk about people who are coming to an event for the first time.
Uh, do you do anything to onboard them or welcome them or make them feel comfortable or or just show them how to behave and how to act, uh, in the event? Um, a little bit of that.
Um, I I like to think that, um, readers are well, they're very smart, every one thing, you know, and and they they love reading, they love authors, they love books.
So, you know, with that as a commonality, Um, we don't have problems.
We really don't.
Um, we, obviously, we, we'd give a a run a show for first timers for what it will be like.
And interestingly, when we send around, you know, uh, how did you how did you like the event you know, follow-up email.
Uh, a lot of people say, you know, when it's their first time, they were really impressed with the format.
And we emphasize having fun.
So, you know, we want the authors to finish up thinking, you know, that was a fun event.
I really enjoyed doing that, and they they tell us that all the time.
But also for the attendees, we want them to have fun.
And, uh, we have a lot of laughing, uh, There was one author.
I can't think who it is now, but, um, he was also a musician and he played his guitar during during the breakout rooms.
So it was it was pretty fun.
Uh, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
You mentioned that after the events, you, you know, get feedback from the people who come.
Can you talk a little bit about, uh, you know, what sort of feedback processes do you have in place? And have you changed? Have things evolved in response to that feedback? Well, you know, yes.
I mean, things when you're running an event, you can always think of ways that you can make it better.
And so, um, we have incorporated the feedback that we get.
Um, once in a while, we get, uh, a person who's a little maybe over enthusiastic And they they want to dominate the conversation and ask too many questions.
Well, obviously, as a as a moderator, we step in, but we're very sensitive to the feedback we get.
And then people also recommend what authors we they'd like to see in the future, and we try to accommodate that as much as possible too.
Um, talk to me about how you measure the success of these events.
I mean, how do you know whether it's working? Well, what what numbers or other things that maybe aren't metrics? You know, what are you looking at? I guess we measure the success by how much fun we had number one, but also, um, the the number of people who come.
So a typical event has between 80 and a 130 attendees.
And, you know, for for Zoom, for something that's been going on for, um, five years, I I just think that's an out those are outstanding numbers.
And I have to be honest, we don't really go out looking for more attendees.
These are just the people that have found us through word-of-mouth and, um, who come as as often as they can because they love the program.
Yeah.
I mean, what's amazing to me is that it it started during the pandemic, and this is still going on, which is because I think a lot of us hit the point where we're like, okay.
I'm I'm zoomed out.
So the fact that people still wanna come, shows that they're getting something out of that connection with the other people who are showing up to the events.
Yeah.
But for sure.
Talk to me about challenges.
What were the biggest challenges in terms of putting this community together.
Well, so one of the challenges, and this is we're currently working on is, um, well, we pay our tech support people.
Right? And and so, we're looking for ways that we could possibly monetize the backroom.
And right now, we're looking at sub stack as a possibility, you know, with with some front facing content.
I mentioned that the, our guest authors always make a book recommendation.
And so, you know, that would be our starting point for the sub stack.
And then possibly, um, for the paid subscribers to the sub stack, we would include, um, some of what is the author said in the breakout room as far as, like, the writing craft is concerned.
You know? So we're we're looking for ways to add value where people would be willing to pay a little bit to to to support it because, uh, yeah, it is a little bit of of drain on our personal finances.
Yeah.
Are you charging anything for admission to these events? No.
Right now it's free.
Right.
So so you're you're trying to figure yeah.
And and you're trying to figure out a monetization model or some way to Right.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Give some advice here.
Is there anything you would do differently? Like, knowing what you know now, is there anything going back where oh, oh, I would've done this or or maybe something that worked from the beginning that you would tell somebody that's at the beginning of their journey.
Yeah.
I I I think the one thing I've learned, you know, being involved with these three, you know, online communities is, um, you can't make a community out of thin air.
There has to be a reason for people be there and a reason for them to participate.
And if you're sensitive to, you know, feedback and and you can see what's working and what's not be flexible, but, um, you, you just can't force it.
You, you know, if it if it's going to work, you will know it.
I I think from the very beginning.
That's that's my personal opinion.
You know, I had another discussion with somebody about this recently where sometimes people feel this pressure to start a community just because they think they're supposed to start a community.
Uh, and you're right.
There has to be that that need, that that shared mission meets, there has to be that reason for people to come together.
Um, and I think something that you're touching on there is that it doesn't necessarily just come from you.
It's it's something that you feel from your members and is in response to your members.
And in a lot of ways, you're co creating this space with your members.
Right? I mean, you're you're taking their input and letting them shape it.
So, um, talk to me about your biggest win.
What are you most proud of when it comes to this community? Oh, um, what am I most proud of? That it's still going.
Yeah? I I I really feel like, um, when we started at the beginning, we we figured it was just sort of a temporary thing to fill in until the pandemic was over.
Well, the pandemic is over.
And, you know, the community and the program is still going strong.
So that's the biggest win.
Uh, that's awesome.
Uh, well, it's the, uh, backroom.
If there are people out there who are avid readers, can they come join and participate in an upcoming event? Absolutely.
You know, so the website is the -back-room.
org, and they can sign up for the mailing list.
And that's the only, really, the best way to know, uh, what's going who's coming up We'll we'll be announcing our fall season, which will be the events for September and October in November, hopefully by the end of this week.
We've got one or two spots still to be confirmed.
But, um, yeah, when, you know, when we have the really big name authors and when publicists they now write to us asking if their authors can be on the program.
So that that's a that's a win too, you know, when we're established enough to, uh, um, uh, be part of their tour schedule.
Right? So, yeah.
Very cool.
Well, uh, look, I think it's absolutely fantastic.
I love that you're doing this.
I love that you're not only a a content creator, but you're a community builder as well.
Thank you for sharing the story.
Um, and I I just wanna plug the books in the movie as well because like I said, I loved The Marsh King's Daughter and The Wicked Sister.
And the movie, um, it's been a couple of years since I watched it, but it was on Amazon.
Is that still the place people go to, uh, find Yeah.
Yeah.
You can get it at I think everywhere except Netflix.
You know, it's it's on Hulu and all kinds of most of the streaming services.
I think Disney Plus and a whole bunch of them.
Well, we'll have to have you back to talk about what that's like because I do wanna hear about what that process is like to be an author and then watch you know, this thing that you've written get turned into something else entirely and, you know, a movie and and and what that's like.
But, uh, we'll save that story for for another day.
Congratulations on all success.
And thank you for sharing the story of the backroom with us.
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
This has been just a lot of fun, and and I hope if people are thinking about, uh, creating a community, go ahead and give it a try.
It it will it's very rewarding.
Yeah.
Very rewarding.
Awesome.
Thanks, Karen
